Leadership Decision: What Is Important At Any Given Time?

Announcer: 0:04

Welcome to the Practice of Non-Profit Leadership, a podcast specifically designed for executive directors of non-profit organizations. With a touch of humor, your co-hosts, tim and Nathan, work to provide encouragement, insights and practical strategies to help you be a more effective leader. And now here's Tim and Nathan.

Tim Barnes: 0:27

Welcome to episode 110 of the Practice of Non-Profit Leadership. I'm Tim Barnes and I'm Nathan Ruby.

Nathan Ruby: 0:34

Well, tim, have you ever heard the expression where there's smoke, there's fire?

Tim Barnes: 0:39

Well, yeah, that's a pretty common expression. I definitely have heard of it, but why do you ask?

Nathan Ruby: 0:45

Well, Tim, that's what we're talking about today how to determine what's important at any given time.

Tim Barnes: 0:53

Okay, well, that's good. At first I thought you were going to talk about fire prevention, but I guess check those fire extinguishers, tim, that's right.

Nathan Ruby: 1:01

So how to?

Tim Barnes: 1:02

determine what's important at any given time. Well, nathan, you know I'm excited about this conversation. I just got back from a two-week trip working at a refugee camp. As I'm coming back, there's just like a million things on my mind of things I have to do. I felt a little bit overwhelmed. I had to just get everything out of my head because I had to start thinking about what's important. What am I going to start with? How am I going to do all this? I think that's true, as nonprofit leaders were inundated with, you know, multiple interruptions a day and things that are demands on our time and that can actually become a significant barrier to getting our work done. So doing only the things that we as executive directors can do. And, as I've heard you say before, we need to remember leadership is about making decisions, so we've got to make decisions about that. What's the most important thing I need to be doing right now?

Nathan Ruby: 1:58

Yeah, absolutely, because we just we could get, as executive directors, as leaders, we just we could get pulled in so many different directions that, like you said, tim, you just you don't get your own work done and there's nobody else to do your work other than you. So we have three points that we want to share today, and these are not. We're not referencing university studies. There's not going to be any documentation in the show notes. These are things that Tim and I do and that we found helpful. We thought we'd share it, and maybe it'd be helpful for you too. So how are we doing this, tim?

Tim Barnes: 2:38

Well, I don't know who's going first, you or me, but I think I think maybe you should start.

Nathan Ruby: 2:43

All right, all right, I'll start with one of mine. So you know, one of the things that I do to help figure this out is that you have to. You have to discern in the moment what is and what is not a crisis, because if you don't discern that, other people will discern it for you. So let's, let's here's a couple of examples. So let's say that the toilet is overflowing, tim. Is that a crisis or not a crisis?

Tim Barnes: 3:15

I would say it's probably a crisis In my world. That would be a crisis.

Nathan Ruby: 3:22

Well, it kind of. Yes, it can be, but not always. So one of the things that I, when something like that happens, one of the first things I think of is how immediate is this? So let's say that it's the bathroom that is right off of the reception area, where all of your guests, all of your donors, all of your volunteers, it's the main entry point into your facility and it now has sewer water flowing freely across the floor. Okay, I would say that's probably a crisis that probably needs immediate attention. All right, agreed, agreed, okay. So the toilet is in the storage building where no one is currently working. Okay, well, you know, maybe there's some, you know, christmas decorations or some important you know, maybe you have your IRS documentation, you know, in boxes on the floor there. So, maybe there's a situation where that would be, that would be, you know, pretty important, but typically probably not. You know, if it's not impacting anybody's work, it's not a health safety issue, and I'm talking immediate, I'm talking like in the next 20 minutes or 30 minutes. You know, if that's leaking, yes, you want to address it, but it's probably not. You know, walking away from writing your, your direct mail appeal or talking to a donor on the phone, important, all right. So that's always one of my first thing how immediate of an issue is this? And you have to make a call and you know maybe the decision. If you're early in your career and you've not been executive director for very long, well, guess what you're gonna? Your time's gonna come and you're gonna make a decision and some will be right and some will be wrong, and you get better at this over time and that's just. That's just part of leadership. So how immediate is it?

Tim Barnes: 5:21

I will. I will say as a as a new nonprofit leader in a small organization. You might always keep a plunger next to your desk. You never know when you might, when you might need it.

Nathan Ruby: 5:32

You know that's. That's a very cheap insurance policy, Tim, it's true. Yeah, absolutely so. The next one is delegate, and whenever anything comes, comes, you know, through. Like that, the first question I ask is is this my problem to handle? The answer is normally no. This is not my problem to handle, it is somebody else's problem to handle. And I think for some people, some personality types, it is. You know, they love fires. They they not actual fires, but they love putting out fires, they love responding to, to things that are happening, and because they can, it's action, it's activity and they love fixing things. And so you know there's a. There's a tendency on some leaders that I've worked with is like there's a problem happening, I have to deal with it. Well, maybe you do, but maybe you don't. And so in the, in the cases of a of a overflowing toilet, you know, is there a? Is there another staff person that could do that could deal with that, either directly fix it, or they can go through the process of getting somebody to to to figure it out. You know, is there a contractor or volunteer that you could call? You know, I worked for a couple of different organizations where most of our maintenance department were volunteers, and they were. They were older, retired guys and you know, if that was to happen for us, that's who we would have called, and so I think and some of this is is also having having some things done ahead of time. So, do you have a? Let's take our toilet. Do you have a plumber? That is your plumber, that you know, you've know you talk to they are, you've got a connection with them and you know when you call they'll, they'll respond. So, or the volunteer. You know it's a simple thing of dialing the phone saying hey, jim or Joe or whatever the name is. Hey, the toilet on the second floor is overflowing. Oh great, you could be here in 10 minutes. Awesome Problem solved. So those are just some things that you can have done ahead of time to make immediate crises like this easily fixable, as opposed to, oh my gosh, what do I do? I don't know how to fix a toilet.

Tim Barnes: 7:59

And you know, I think those two things work, work together and I think you get better at it with experience. So you make a decision quick, quickly, about how, how big of a crisis is this and if it's like, hey, this is a crisis, but it's not no one's going to die or something. The second part about delegation is something I think I'm learning and have learned is I've had more experience to say am I the one that really needs to deal with this or is there someone who either is better or has more experience or can do whatever? But I feel like that has to be a question that we need to learn to ask ourselves who's the best person to respond At this, at this moment, with this, with this opportunity, or this crisis, or whatever this situation, situation.

Nathan Ruby: 8:47

Yeah, so all right. Here's another example, tim. Let's say that you are doing something. You're working on the budget, you're figuring out staffing Schedules, you are talking to a donor Whatever you're doing things that you're supposed to be doing and your phone rings and now pretty much everybody has cell phones. So you look at the phone, you know who's calling. If you're like me, if your name, if name doesn't pop up on the phone, I'm not answering it. So that's, that's an absolute no, I'll listen to the voicemail and if I have to respond, I will. But let's say that one of your board members name is on your phone and You're sitting there and you're in the groove, you're getting great work done. You're just, you're rocking and rolling on whatever as you're working on, and that you look over to the right or the left, wherever your phone is, and there's that board members name. Tim, do you answer the phone or do you let it go to voicemail?

Tim Barnes: 9:44

Well, I gotta be honest. I hope none of my board members are listening, but it all depends on which name pops up.

Nathan Ruby: 9:53

Okay, I'll give.

Tim Barnes: 9:54

I'll give you that one, tim, that is true there are some that provide more grace than others, so I'm making a decision.

Nathan Ruby: 10:02

Yeah, so typically what I do and since the example is board members, my, but my board members know that I am Not going to answer the phone Just because their name pops up on my phone, just because they're a board member, does not mean that I drop what I'm doing and I answer the phone. That like today. Today I was working on a specific fall fundraising initiative Involving the board, and so this was actually email I wasn't phone, but it's the same concept and I was going to have my board president do some things for the rest of the board, and he had questions that needed to be answered so that it could get done. So in that case, yes, when I saw his name pop up on my email list, I stopped what I was doing and I responded to it, because he was trying to get something done that was going to generate revenue, and so that was a priority for me. All right, that's that's a little different that I respond to pretty quickly, but outside of that, I my board knows, and some of my key donors that I would talk to on a regular basis 24 to 48 hours is my response time. I typically try to keep it within 24 hours, but if I'm like full blown into some Project or something that like a big proposal with a deadline. It could be two days before I respond, and my board knows that and they know that because I have talked to them about that. We have, we have talked about it in board meetings and so they are already Educated.

Tim Barnes: 11:44

I'll use the word educated in that when, if they call me, text me, email me, I will respond if I can, but it could be tomorrow before I respond, depending on what's going on at that given time when I think that's important, as you, as you Interact with your board members, that you do make it clear this is how it normally works and you might have something like you know I do with with With Liz, my wife if I don't answer the first time, call me straight back and I, if it, if it comes a second time, then I'm going to answer because I know there's something in an emergency. Maybe you have those kind of protocols, but yeah, it's just being, it's being clear up front, so there's a recognition of how this is going to work.

Nathan Ruby: 12:28

Yeah, absolutely, and and part of we could probably do a whole episode on this, tim but is managing expectations and as long as you're you have, manage those expectations out in front of an issue. Most, most people are reasonable most of the time. So your board knows that you're busy, they know that you're trying to do a good job, they know that you're, you're working hard, and so, if they understand that, hey, I will respond to you if I can, but please understand that you know, sometimes. Sometimes it may not be able to till tomorrow, that for the most part, they will be fine with that. So, alright. So, board members, that responding to board members or other, it's not just a board member, it could be any Important a person that has something to do, a stakeholder, donor or, you know, a community official, whatever whoever you regularly communicate with, just just let them know ahead of time that, hey, I'm responding the best I can. It may be tomorrow and and, timmy, you and I talked about this before we started recording another thing you could do if you felt like you really needed to respond is you could just send an email or text back saying, hey, I got your voicemail. I do want to talk to you about that. I can't get to you till tomorrow. I'll call tomorrow morning and that, generally, is another way to To respond with without getting into a you know our long conversation. Okay, I got another example, tim. This would be the last example for this point. Um, how about this one? What if somebody comes running, one of your staff? People comes running into your office, they are out of breath and they say somebody has fallen in the hallway and they're bleeding. Is that an immediate response from you, tim? I?

Tim Barnes: 14:11

Would say, yes, I actually had something similar happen. I had one of our staff guys several years ago was snow blowing our sidewalks at our, at our organization and whatever. He wasn't thinking, but he Stuck his hand to pull the snow out of the snowblower, oh, caught his finger in it. Oh, I responded quite quickly, in fact, put him in my car and took him to the hospital. So so, yes, I responded quite quickly in that kind of situation.

Nathan Ruby: 14:43

He didn't get blood on your seat, did he?

Tim Barnes: 14:45

I don't remember Didn't really matter at that point. Yeah.

Nathan Ruby: 14:50

Yeah, so alright. So the point here is, you know, when you start talking about physical safety, injured people, that to me and again, this is this is this is not university studies or anything, this is Tim and I talking here to us. That's an immediate response. You know, I will hang up the phone, I will stop what I'm doing and I will get out there. Because now, all of a sudden, you're, you're talking live, well, you're, you care for the people, you care for your staff, you care for volunteers, you care for people in your building. This also gets under liability. And so now, all of a sudden, you know, what did you do to help, what did you do to care for that person? And so that that demands your attention right now. So that's a that's an easy one, that's a no-brainer. I would not delegate that Tim. Good, good idea, yeah, yeah, now I may say, okay, we've got things under control. Hey, you know, staff person, can you take the injured person, can you? You know, can you take my car? Can you take them to the hospital? That that I might do. But that immediate response, that's something that you need to be, need to be part of.

Tim Barnes: 15:58

So so what's the main point that we're taking away from this, nathan?

Nathan Ruby: 16:02

I think you you have to Make an assessment of is this critical for me to respond to right now? Then also, if it is, if it does need to be addressed right now, I'm either right person to address it and the vast majority of time I don't have an exact percentage, but I would say more than 90% of the time you are not the person that needs to be Addressing it. Now. If you're the only person in the building and the toilet is overflowing, okay, then it's probably you. You probably don't have much of a choice on that, but for most people, most organizations, most of the time If there's something that's happening, there's somebody else that can deal with that besides you as Executive director, as a leader.

Tim Barnes: 16:48

So it's important, as you grow as a leader, to develop that kind of discernment as to what's a crisis, what's not a crisis. Is this for me to respond or not? So really really good, good point there. I actually think you've got another, another thought about. Yeah, just starting with some port yeah, I do.

Nathan Ruby: 17:08

And this one the titles a little, is a little odd, but it's. I've got a title people versus events and as a leader as a nonprofit leader that by definition means you are leading people. And when you lead people, you get. You get the whole person, not just the one that shows up at eight o'clock and stays until 430 in the afternoon. You get everything. You get what happened to them in the morning, you get them. If they had a fight or an argument with their spouse in the morning, if their kids are in trouble at school, if somebody cut them off on the way to work and they're mad about that, you get all of that baggage. All of that comes into work with them. And Are you responsible for them? Are you responsible for staff and volunteers of what happens to them outside of work? No, no, you are not responsible for that. But does it make sense for you, as the leader, to be keenly aware of what's happening in their lives and how that impacts them at work and engaging with them on that? Absolutely, you. You need to do that because it makes such an impact. I guess my point here is if you have a staff person or volunteer and Something happens. Let's say what would be a common situation, tim. Um, somebody comes to work and there is a some type of an altercation between staff people. There's a yelling match, there's a you know something, that that that happens, and that's if that hasn't happened to you yet, that's awesome. As a leader, sooner or later, that's probably something that you're gonna have to address. And, and so you know, if there are two staff people that are arguing with each other, you know, in the, in the front lobby, that needs to be addressed. Now, it's probably the same thing as as as we just got done talking about are you the one that needs to handle it? Well, if they have a direct supervisor, that's not you, then no, that is the supervisors role to address that. Now, if you get into a position where the the supervisor is is unable or unwilling or not equipped to deal with it, then yeah, then you have to step in and deal with it, but you're not the first choice that that direct supervisor is the one that should be doing that. And then again going back to do I need to do this right now. Well, if there's an argument going on, yes, somebody needs to address that, but if somebody's had a bad day and and has a. You know where they're snapping at or they're yelling at at another staff person. You know you may not be able to address it in the in the moment, but you may be able to say, hey, you know, come see me in a couple hours and you know sit down and say, hey, what, that's not you, that that's not to believe what's what's going on and have that type of a conversation.

Tim Barnes: 20:09

So yeah, well, and also, I mean that also that also Could be impactful to your culture. You know, what kind of a culture do you have in terms of how we work together? How do we deal with conflict? Even if you're not dealing with it directly, it probably means you need to least circle back around to their supervisor to talk about hey, what's going on? Do we need to make some changes? So you probably need to be involved some way, but maybe that comes a little bit later.

Nathan Ruby: 20:36

Yeah, and you know, sometimes, tim, I go back and I listen to our old episodes. On occasionally, I do go back and listen to our old episodes. I'm and again you know, it's like, hey, we did good on that one, tim, and I'm man, that one, that one wasn't so good. Yeah, there's so many things that we that tim and I say, oh, you know, you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this, and the list of things that you're supposed to be doing. I think now we're up like a hundred and seventy two. I think nobody could do all of those things. And now that I just said that, I'm gonna tell you another thing that you need to do. And you know, as a leader, you're never gonna be ready for everything. It just there are, things are gonna happen that you're not prepared for and you do the best you can and you learn from it and you move on. But you also the learning from the moving on is you do things then to address that situation. So let's go back to the two, the two people, two step people, two volunteers arguing in the, in the front hallway and the front line. That's the supervisor, the direct supervisor, of those of those two step people either didn't handle the situation very well or was unable, or it didn't. It didn't go very well. Well then, that's when you have to sit down with your managers, with your supervisors, and say, okay, this is what happened, we didn't do such a good job, so what do we need to do, you know? Do we need to get training? Do we need to? You know, I don't. I don't know what it is, but but you can't just let that go and not address. If it, if it, if the process didn't work, you have to fix the process is what I'm trying to say. And sometimes you just have to have an event take place, you learn from it and then you figure out how to get better at that, so that can be, that could be part of the part of it.

Tim Barnes: 22:28

I want to emphasize to Nathan that you know, as leaders we are in the people business Doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what kind of organization you're leading. We have to care about our people and if you want them to be productive, if you want them to To do well in the work, they need to know that you care about them and that you're you know, you're in touch with what's going on and you can't just say well, that's, you know, I don't care about that, just do your work.

Nathan Ruby: 22:59

Hey, doesn't, doesn't go that way, yeah, and if you want your staff to come in and ready to work and excited to be there and do their very best for the organization and the people you serve, that starts with you and caring for them. And you know, if you have a big staff, if you have 30 staff people, obviously you can't be directly connected to everybody, but that. But that's where culture comes in and you know as you, as you Get connected with your leadership team and then teach them how to get connected with their people, and that that filters down from the top, and so that goes back to culture. But that's all critically, critically important. Alright. One last thing, tim, on mine, and that is Open door policy. Open door policy was a management model back I don't know, and the whatever it was a few decades ago, and the concept was that you know the leader has their, literally has their door open, and so anybody could come in and have a conversation and and it was a way to where you could, you could show, demonstrate that as a leader, you were open to, you know talking to people and you know what's going on and your part of it, and those were all good things. But I am not a. I'm not as much of an open door person, tim. Now, some of it is because my team is totally remote. So you know we don't have an office that we're working in, but even so, in today's world of working remote, it's still. You know, do you answer the phone when it rings? Do you respond to the email? That's the concept, and I am not. I've never done an open door, because if you do that, then you signal to people that what you're doing is not of importance enough that it can't be interrupted. Now there's a balance and you know, if I have somebody says, hey, can I have 30 minutes of your time, whether it's a staff person or volunteer, whatever I will say yes, but I can't do it right now. Could we do it at two o'clock, four o'clock tomorrow, you know you, next week, whatever, as opposed to taking that whatever I'm focused on, because whatever I'm focused on at the moment is important enough that it has my attention. That means it's important. So just be careful of guarding your time and your energy and your focus.

Tim Barnes: 25:32

Two, two comments. That, nathan. One is that I think I had mentioned this earlier in the year on an episode, but I did try. I've tried something this year that I think has been pretty good, because my team is is all remote as well, but I've created intentional open hours, so being able to say hey, from such and such a time my zoom is open, I'll be working, but if you need some of my time, just come in, come into my zoom room, I'll be there and we'll talk. If you have a question Conversation and I feel like that's been good, people know and and I plan for it. So I have stuff on my desk. If nobody shows up, I am working, but if somebody shows up, I push it aside and say, okay, you got my attention and I feel like that's been, that's been pretty good. I think the second thing that I'm that I've learned to is when someone says, hey, can I get a bit of your time, I've learned to ask the question what are we gonna talk about? So that that helps me again, helps me discern how, how Quickly do I need to give that person the time? And it helps me in my mindset, say okay, I need to think a little bit ahead of time what's gonna what's gonna go on, and I think is all part of discerning what's really important right now being able to have those two, those two things that you're disposal.

Nathan Ruby: 26:52

Yeah, absolutely, and yeah, that's a great point of what are we gonna talk about, because you know, if it's a Issue, whatever the issue is, and this is a and you you could get a sense of okay, this is, this is more than a ten minute conversation, yeah, it's gonna be an hour, and and that further allows you to make that discernment of is this the right time for that?

Tim Barnes: 27:13

So, all right, tim, you got a couple of things, I think well, yeah, I had a point that I put out there and this is not, this is not rocket science, but I my point was and I've called it mission driven versus activity, mission driven versus activity and it really comes down to is I look at everything that's coming at me and I look at all the, all the requests for my time and you need to do this. You need to do that. There is a tendency, I think, sometimes as leaders, to to come across Like I am busy, I am doing a lot of things, I'm doing a lot of activity. So I'm checking my checklist and all that and I think, is I, as you, as you stand back and you go okay, what's really important right now? I tend to say what, what's the mission? How does this impact the mission? How does this impact what we're going to do? What things are most important as it relates to the mission actually doing what we're supposed to be doing? Do I want to just show the staff or the board or whatever, that I'm busy and I'm doing a lot of things, or am I really focused on Helping accomplish our mission? For me, the key question is Okay, is this the right activity right now that helps us go forward in our mission. That's always in my mind as I look at my list or I look at the demands that are in front of me.

Nathan Ruby: 28:35

Yeah, and you know, years ago the definition of work In a lot of companies, and probably nonprofits as well, was are you sitting at your desk or at your workstation, whatever that is, are you there Looking like you're busy? And that was the definition of work. I'm producing, I'm working and thankfully I don't. I don't think I don't get the sense that that's so much the the rule anymore or the expectation. I know, with my team and again, we're remote, so it's a little different if you're not remote, but it's like I just you know you, you have deliverables, you have outputs that you need to produce. You know, as long as those get done when they're supposed to, I mean I don't care when they work, they can work at three in the morning as long as they don't call me. And so I think there's a different expectation there. But yeah, it used to be oh, you know he or she, you know they don't ever go home until you know 6, 30 at night. Well, there wasn't any any discernment of were they being productive, were they doing anything, it's just being their equaled output, and that was. I'm glad those days are over.

Tim Barnes: 29:49

And I think what we're trying to say is it's not about activity. It's about doing the right activities. It's about sticking with the mission. As a leader, as you look at your to-do list, as you look at all the demands you have, what should be going through your mind is is this helping us take the next step? Is it helping us accomplish our mission? Mission alignment is really the key, and that should be one of the key things we think about when we're making decisions about what we're giving our time and An effort to. Is this truly a cop helping us accomplish our mission, or will it instead divert our energy or our Resources or our focus away from our mission? And so that's something that needs to be in your forefront as you think about it.

Nathan Ruby: 30:33

Your time is is important. You are the executive director, you're the leader of whatever department you're leading, and there are things that only you can do, and so when you are engaged in those activities, that is of utmost important. And as leaders, we have to get good at making Decisions on how do we react to things when they happen. So am I the right person to do this? Is this something that I have to address now? Is it a is it something that I do have to address now, or can it wait for later? So those are. That's all part of the discernment process and the learning process. And Again, for people that are early career, the homes. You'll you're gonna make a couple of mistakes here and there, but it's okay, that's part of the learning process. And as time goes on and you get into more of those situations, you will have more confidence, you will feel stronger about your ability to handle those. And but just just remember, not making a decision is actually making a decision. Figure out what you got to do and make a decision, and that's your first step.

Tim Barnes: 31:48

We really appreciate you listening today and would encourage you, if this podcast is Is benefiting you, leave a review on the on the platform that you're listening to, and if you'd like to get in touch with us, our contact information can be found in the show notes. Well, that's all for today. Well, that's all for today, until next time.